Q & A: OKay, as promised, I’m going to respond to a few of the comments/questions/opinions/observations shared in response to my post about sexism this past weekend. I always try to keep these entries between 300 and 1,000 words, so I know I will not begin to cover everything. Hopefully, though, this will be helpful.
First, from my friend Adam: “While not espousing one position or another, I wonder how you would respond to those who point out the various places in scripture, particularly in Paul’s writing, where gender lines are clearly drawn both in ministry and public life?”
I’ll begin by borrowing (my wife) Rebekah’s oft-used phrase, “What else does the Bible say?”
PROOF-TEXTING: Look hard enough and you can find verses of scripture to back up just about any position we might like to take on just about any issue. It’s called “proof-texting” and there’s almost no limit to its application – often for opposing sides of the same argument!
There are verses to support stoning (women, children, homosexuals etc.), rape, racism, benevolence, intolerance, tolerance, slavery, incest, pacifism, war-mongering, peace, unconditional love, divorce, reconciliation, fidelity, infidelity, human sacrifice, women in leadership, male-only leadership, keeping women silent, allowing women to speak… and so much more.
In other words, the Bible can be manipulated to support just about anything we want to say, good, bad, reasonable or outrageous.
WOMEN: Paul, for example, writes that women should keep silent in church and wait to ask their husbands to explain things to them when they get home (the problem was actually about listening, translating from the Greek, who knew Greek – typically men involved in commerce – and too many questions; rather than the fact that they were women…).
In another epistle, Paul says that women should keep their heads covered when they speak in church. So, which one is it? Speak? Not speak? Speak with heads covered?
It’s important that we have a sense of what’s going on in the entire biblical witness. How is the message of God’s radical love – and God’s challenging call for both justice and righteousness – developed over literally centuries of prophesy, and history, and narrative, and poetry, and sermons, and prayers and more?
What cultural overlays, and religious systems, and social norms, and business ethics have shifted? And what methods of life and modes of communication have grown, and re-calibrated, and evolved, and literally contradicted themselves? What may have potentially changed – even if just a little – between the earliest ancient Jewish texts and the Revelation of John… and then down through two thousand more years of evolving mores, values, and styles of getting God’s essential message across?
Surely no-one in the Southern Baptist Church is going to argue that we should stone children who are disrespectful to their parents? Surely no Catholic Priest still advocates the keeping of slaves? or owning/having more than one wife? or that we should slaughter every inhabitant of a town that is captured in a military action? So why place the weight of powerful institutions behind restrictions on the role of women that are rooted more in historical cultural practices than the content of the Word of God?
THE CONSTANT OF GOD’s FAITHFUL LOVE: What hasn’t changed is the constant thrust of The Greatest Story Ever Told. And that is the story of God’s generous and invitational love, and God’s desire that human beings live life to the fullest expression of what is possible among those created in the very image of God:
“So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.” (Genesis 1:27)
The thrust of the witness of The Greatest Story Ever Told is God’s constant invitation for us to participate in this “Life-Charged Life.” To the extent that we restrict, exclude, carve out special privileges for some and deny them to others (based on sex, race, income, nationality, etc…), we are at odds with God’s foundational program.
ENOUGH FOR TODAY! OKay, so that’s probably enough for today. I may pick up some of the other good observations tomorrow, or later this week – but this blog is a moving target and I can’t say what will yank my chain tomorrow morning!
Regardless, I want all of you to talk seriously with God about these issues, and to be open to the life-charged initiative of God’s transformational love. And ask yourselves this question: “How could it possibly advance the kingdom of God’s love and grace to exclude half the population from leadership (and key decision-making) simply because they are not men?”
Really… how impossibly absurd is that?
Peace – DEREK
Nobody ever said this would be easy, did they? I sense that the Holy Spirit, constantly moving among us, leads us into a church that is reformed and ever-reforming. As the church changes, God never does. His grace and mercy through Jesus Christ is unchanging and never-ending.
Unfortunately there are those that resist change for the wrong reason. They believe that they have the insight or vision of what God wants His church to look like. There are many issues facing Christ’s church that people are using to tear it apart, all for pressing their personal perceptions on the people of God. Not to sound crass, but it’s not “their” church (nor is it mine). It is Chist’s church.
Thanks for your continuing thought- provoking posts.
“Reformed and reforming” is a key concept, isn’t it? It’s also a little (sometimes a lot) scary. You are so right that it is Christ’s church.
Thanks, Andy
I’ve functioned in churches that strictly define roles women can play and I’ve functioned in churches that do not define the roles of men and women. The interesting thing is that they both quote Paul to support their positions. I’ll be using the insight “What else does the Bible say?” – thank you Rebekah! I couldn’t help but notice last Sunday when we heard the Pentecost story that it says twice that The Spirit will fall on both men and women with the same result – they will prophesy.
Thanks, Karen! I appreciate your thoughts.
If I can’t get Rebekah to start a blog the least I can do is to quote her once in a while!
What is your view of the verse…1Tim 3:2. I have been taught that that this verse shows why women can’t be a bishop,pastor,deacon or overseer of a congregation. They can be teachers and administrators but not the role of church leader.
Quick answer, Debbie….
First – and essentially one of the main points of my blog post – it’s impossible to use one passage as the definitive word on a subject that is approached from so many angles in the complete witness of scripture.
Second – Paul was possibly only thinking about men when he wrote to Timothy. That’s really not surprising, because that’s the world they lived in. But, again, it’s a very unreasonable leap to imply that what Paul wrote in that particular circumstance is the final and definitive word from God to the effect that “No woman may ever have leadership responsibility in the Body of Christ…”
Third – Now read the following verses from 1Tim3 again, but this time think about the church leaders you know. How many do you think we should fire now!
“It is true that anyone who desires to be a church official wants to be something worthwhile. 2 That’s why officials must have a good reputation and be faithful in marriage. They must be self-controlled, sensible, well-behaved, friendly to strangers, and able to teach. 3 They must not be heavy drinkers or troublemakers. Instead, they must be kind and gentle and not love money.
4 Church officials must be in control of their own families, and they must see that their children are obedient and always respectful. 5 If they don’t know how to control their own families, how can they look after God’s people?”
Thanks for your insights and understanding.
Hi, Derek! When discussing Paul’s views on women (the contradictions of either keeping silence or or heeping their heads covered when speaking) and Titus, discussed above, we must keep in mind that women were not considered human beings at this time. They were property, chattel. So the passages in Paul, above, were of a completely different mindset than what we practice today. My wife, Carol, is a wonderful, fully suffraged woman of the 21st Century. So, too, Derek, is Rebekah. They can inherit property and do things unimaginable in Paul’s time. All of this was impossible at the time of these scriptures. So it’s all a matter of profoundly different cultural relativism. Peace and Blessings. Henry
Henry/Derek: So, Paul was under Gods influence while writing out his attributed portions of the Bible, yes? So, God, as evident by omission decided to keep silent on views of women? He could have just as easily influenced a line or two on how woman is equal in all things. You say the cultural times made things impossible? Where did the culture come from? It came from GOD himself. God is responsible for the impossibilities: the book of the Hebrews that eventually became the Old Testament.
God either influenced the writers to his view on treatment of women or he kept silent. If he choose to remain silent didnt he lend credibility by His silence? Or, maybe He just didn’t care one way or the other. If if he cared, if it was Important enough he would have got his message thru even that long ago. He got other messages thru.
It just doesn’t make sense, to me, none of it, when you really start picking out the details. I have felt that way since long ago days in Sunday School. Even then I felt something was amiss.
I guess maybe someone needs to set me down and explain to me like I’m six years old why:
If I were a member of the army of Moses (thus God) moving from captivity to the promised land, why I would have been expected and to kill not just men, but women, and children, and babies, and the occasional animal, for my God of Peace and Love.
Why it is that Abraham, attempting to sacrifice his son to God, is being sold off as a man in the act of virtue? Abraham fully intended to kill his boy for the God of Love. Only because God said stop was Isaac spared. How frightening for Isaac, being tricked by his father, thinking he was going to be killed by his father. It does not matter to me that the act was not carried out. It’s nothing more than attempted murder. I think it’s insane, the act of a lunatic. If someone in this day said God told them to kill their son, but then said no, I was just testing…most people would have the same thought – this guy is CRAAAZY, get his kids away from him quick. If the story is true, I think it’s one of the cruelest acts our God of love has carried out on his beloved followers.
If God told me to kill my kid…well, I would say no…and wonder what in world I’m doing espousing the wonders of a God that tells people to kill their children. Come on who wouldn’t feel the same?
I know, I know, the old fall back: Gods ways will never be understood by man. I know enough to understand I’m not killing my kids for anybody. Sorry, God, choose somebody else to play games with. Who wouldn’t feel the same?
Why are seemingly bad and evil stories about God and his instructions to his followers to do bad and evil things to others discarded as results of inadequate translations or products of outdated times? Why are otherwise straightforward events sometimes shrouded in veils and called allegories or analogies? Well, that’s not really what He mean, what He really meant was…..fill in the blank. In any event, these tales are not told in Church, why is that?
Why dont we get to hear the story of genitals as large as a donkey? Why not? Its the inspired word of God.
Why then are all the good things given as exactly what he meant to say or do? Is it possible that incorrect translations or outdated practices have created the exact same effect?
The more I delve into the Bible the less I believe. Its true of me. If I am to keep any of my already shakey faith I cannot get into the details.
-T
Tim…
Real quick response:
The Bible is the ongoing story of the struggle – first the Children of Israel and then the emerging church – to forge a relationship with God. God’s initiative, our response. Mistakes, clarification, corrections, interpretations, revelations, misunderstandings, broken relationships, power plays, prophesies, personal stories, betrayals, redemption… it’s all there. God showed Abraham that he wasn’t about sacrificing children – and that was a big step forward in understanding religion and a move away from the status quo… It’s all a continuing revelation,it’s all a work in progress, it’s all a guide, it’s all a wonderful journey. It’s a story, good bad and ugly all rolled together.
What it’s not is tidy.
I love it and I’ll keep studying and being open to God’s voice in all that I read.