what else does the Bible say? (women called to ministry)
“God doesn’t look at things like humans do. Humans see only what is visible to the eyes, but the Lord sees into the heart.” – 1 Samuel 16:7
“Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways! For who can know the Lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice?” – Romans 11:33
Derek Maul
Today I’m going to finish out (I think) this week’s series of posts on The Bible, and the problem so many of us have of grabbing a text here, and a verse there in order to justify a much broader personal or political agenda (more on proof-texting – including my tendency to do it too – in “Christians Behaving Badly”).
This kind of approach has been – and still is – used to justify racism, and also to support integration; it has been employed to prop up communism, as well as to promote capitalism; it has been leveraged to encourage going to war, and also to under-gird the principle of pacifism; scripture can be quoted to favor capital punishment, and also to condemn it… Find the right scripture, and prove your point!
Fact is, the phrase “I’m a Bible-believing Christian,” really means something like this: “We believe in the authority of our interpretation. If you interpret the Bible differently, then you obviously don’t accept the authority of scripture. If you don’t line up behind everything we believe, then that means you’re not a Bible-believing person/church/denomination.”
“All are welcome at the table”
WOMEN: So, the reason I’ve gone back to this proof-texting stuff again today is a question I fielded Thursday morning. The short version goes like this, “What is Rebekah’s justification for being a women pastor, in light of 1 Timothy?”
It was actually a lateral, a hand-off, third-party, from a question asked at a women’s Bible study meeting at a church where only men are allowed to lead. One women actually went so far as to say that if she had felt called to ministry, she would have suppressed it because she knows it’s not in-line with the teaching of 1 Timothy.
Yes, that’s right, someone actually said they would suppress God (and the over-arching witness of the entire Bible, where God calls whosoever God will), in favor of proof-texting that supports the reactionary tenets of her cultural milieu.
MY RESPONSE: So I shot off this quick, un-researched, fairly impassioned response to the “justification” question. The short answer, of course, is that God called Rebekah to ministry. And, as we know, when God calls, God also equips.
The following is raw and off the cuff – but I believe you will still enjoy reading the content of my reply. Here it is:
God called us together…
“Okay, here’s my two-cents worth:
“First, it must be disheartening to be surrounded by people who can’t see the radical, transformational, status-quo-busting, “welcome to the New Creation” core of the Jesus message – and instead gravitate toward any passage that props-up the notion that Christianity supports a male dominated social structure. Really???
“Jesus liberated everyone he ran into. Jesus broke convention by talking to women, alone; he touched lepers; he violated the law at every turn; he was open to everyone – without distinction.
“Paul embraced this message, included women in his leadership teams, and used phrases such as “In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female…” Then the later letters (probably post AD 65, and not written by Paul) started revealing a more established Christianity that had started to accommodate to the culture. Consequently slavery was OK again, women were property again, it was all about legalism again etc….
“1 Timothy was written to a situation where things had rolled back, socially, to the extent that women seem to be back where they were pre-Jesus. This idea of “being saved through childbirth” – for example – was a recurring theme in Old Testament stories.
God at work at WFPC – 11:15
“However, those kinds of thoughts aside, there is no tidy explanation for what the writer of 1 Timothy says about women (by the end of the book it all begins to sound disturbingly misogynistic). But then there’s no tidy explanation for what is said about slavery either, in chapter 6. And there is no tidy explanation for biblical passages advocating the stoning of disobedient children. And there’s no tidy explanation for God choosing Deborah to lead the nation of Israel, or for God throwing Job under the bus, or – for that matter – for God calling Rebekah into ministry, and blessing that work abundantly; God just did. God just does.That’s the kind of God God is.
“Rebekah will likely ask this, “What else does the Bible say?” It’s always a great question, because the Bible also says that women should keep their heads covered when they speak in church (so they CAN teach…). The Bible also says that several women had leadership roles in the early church (was Paul out of line in working with these women?). The Bible also says Deborah was called to LEAD Israel. The Bible also says that God calls who God chooses to call. The Bible says that Philip had four daughters who were all preachers. Are the women in your group prepared to say that God’s hands are tied by one passage?
“You see, the Bible is not God. The Bible is the narrative story of humankind’s struggle to know God, and of God’s reaching out to God’s people. In the Bible, we have stories of people who get it right, and we have accounts of people who get it wrong. We have people misunderstanding God, and we have people who seem to follow God with integrity and authenticity. If we considered every story in the Bible as a blow-by-blow instruction, then we’d be stoning disobedient children, we’d be recommending genocide when we find a city where there are unbelievers (infidels), we’d be throwing people out of the church if they divorce, etc. etc.
“But, instead, we commit ourselves to following the Way of Jesus, and we find ourselves – along with the early disciples and church leaders – asking hard questions, reversing ourselves quite often, and – more and more – understanding that the Gospel of Love invites everyone, male and female, slave and free, gay and straight, believer and seeker, into a transformational relationship of love with God, through Jesus. That’s the point. That’s the gospel.
“The more we walk this path, the more petty, legalistic, and patently un-Christlike our prejudices and our exclusions appear.
“OK, time to stop ranting on the fly. Hope this helps. I’m sure Rebekah would give you less fluff and more substance.
God at work at WFPC – 9:00
“Love and peace and promise – DEREK”
And, having topped 1,000 words once again, that’s certainly more than enough for today!
Pastor Derek, I so love most of what you have to say. As a woman who feels called to teach the Word (and was at one point kicked out of a bible-study and group of friends for my passionate belief that woman can and SHOULD teach and lead)… but you said ‘The Bible isn’t God’. I disagree. The gospel of John opens with a sweeping statement about Jesus- “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Jesus was the ‘Word made flesh’. So the scripture itself holds the essence of who God is. We can’t discount any of it. We have to take in the whole counsel of it. That’s how I came to the conclusion that women should preach if they are anointed to do so. Our calling and identity in Christ supercedes gender roles. (Gal. 3:28) Also, maybe Paul simply meant women should be quiet and respectful while someone is preaching. I’ve been in services were they weren’t. Not cool. Women do have more of a tendency to do that. But God obviously uses women- Like Deborah or Joyce Meyer. I personally believe men should be leaders and head pastors and such but God can certainly raise up a woman to lead. Also, women were made subject to men through the curse and fall. Jesus came to redeem us from the curse. Men and women are therefore on level ground at the foot of the cross.
Quick – important – correction. I am NOT a pastor!! Thanks for your comment. Jesus most certainly is The Word made flesh. But I don’t believe we’re called to worship the words – just The Word. Regardless, I appreciate your enthusiastic and positive witness. Grace and peace – DEREK
The first chapter of John is not referencing what we now call the Bible. That’s a false equivalency. The “logos” referenced in Greek could be understood as “word” or “will.” In Hebrew, the concept is more of an allusion to the personification of God’s will…or a relational bridge to the unfathomable God. The writer of John is offering us his lede, stating that Jesus is God’s word and will. This has nothing to do with the 66 books. In fact, it might be an effort to turn people’s focus away from scriptural squabbles and back on Jesus.
Not buying it. You are over-complicating something relatively simple. Jesus is the Word of God personified. Hebrews calls it ‘alive and active’. Not just 66 books loped together but one long divinely inspired text, all of it “God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.” 2 Tim. 3:16 True, aspects of His character are unfathomable but he makes much clear to us in His Word- “I publicly proclaim bold promises. I do not whisper obscurities in some dark corner.” Isaiah 45:19 The Bible HAS to be the plumb-line of truth or our deceitful hearts will lead us astray and into false doctrine. If you reject the Word as the authoritative word of God then I submit that you are not a true believer.
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Helpf comment, Adam
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Adam, I like what you had to say about the Word or Will of Go being made manifest in flesh rather than the written word. At first, I reacted like this: Wrong! The Word is the Bible. Then I let it sit with my spirit for a while and I understand what you are saying. I just left a church where there were many doctrinal errors. Most of them were based on Scripture that had been misapplied. If we are not careful, we can begin to doubt the written word, then start to think Jesus wasn’t REALLY God, it’s just the Bible saying so. I have also heard a person who believes we come from an alien race (The source of God.), and that when Genesis says “Let US create man in OUR image” it is referring to the aliens working together in the creation. We indeed have to be very careful who we listen to and what we say the Bible is saying. Good thought Adam. Thanks for sharing it.
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Sierra, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’ll try to do a better job explaining, using only established fact without extrapolation.
In John the word used for “word” is “logos.” Now, what does this word mean? In interpreting any text, particularly one that was written in another language to people who spoke yet another language, you must begin and end with the word’s meaning without adding anything to it.
“Logos” means “the expression of a thought” or “reasoning expressed by words.” In popular understanding, it was also used to mean “expressed will.”
The Jews reading this would have understood that John was using “logos” to define Jesus as a way to understand God’s will, a personification of God’s essence and meaning. The Greeks reading this word would have understood that John’s account would be a story about the embodied will of God and the expression of God’s will.
Let me be absolutely clear. These facts do not negate scripture. The writer of John is establishing Jesus as the Son of God. This is the message of the entire book.
I never said the Bible was “lumped together” it does consist of 66 books and excludes many others that, though commonly used, were rejected by the committee that established the final collection. Further, and this is important, the writer of 2 Timothy was talking specifically about the Old Testament. At least 7 NT books had not even been written yet. Further, the writer specifically reminds Timothy that he has been “taught the scriptures from his childhood,” which would have been before any NT books had been written.
Again, this is not a “rejection” of scripture. Nor is it meant to cause doubt. It is a series of facts.
Interesting, Adam. Thanks for clarifying. I see a shift in the church culture towards pandering to the notions of political correctness and not standing by the truth. I personally have no doubt that God guided the formation of what we know as the ‘Bible’ from start to finish. I’ve read some of those other writings and they honestly don’t have the same level of anointing.
I can humbly say that God has equipped and gifted me with the gift of teaching and I feel compelled by the Spirit to do it. God loves me and uses me as much as He uses my husband in His service. Thanks for that write up. It has indeed boosted me despite all the opposition that I receive here by many …:) God bless
This is great! This is wonderful! You are totally NOT over-complicating anything! I, along with tons of others, appreciate and respect the perspective you offer in your every day blog- the Internet is a happier place because of you! thank you for sharing the TRUTH. 🙂
Hi Derek, great blog. Very thought provoking. I agree with the statement that the Bible is not God, but it is God’s word. Narrative doesn’t seem strong enough. I also love Rebekah’s challenge of “what else does the Bible say?” I think the key to not misusing the Bible is in this statement. We really need to study the Word diligently and ask the Holy Spirit to help us understand it and how it applies to our personal walk right where we are. We need to read it in context of the whole text, each author and the specific time and purpose. This is how we can read the same text and get different messages from others and even from our own selves at different times. Thanks be to God for his Word that nourishes us, refreshes our soul and enlightens our paths!
I don’t want to come off as a jerk. I enjoy Derek ‘ s blog as well. My rant was a warning for all of us. Are we judging God’s word against what we have been cultured to believe? Shouldn’t we filter culture through a biblical lense? Shouldn’t scripture be the highest authority? If the Word of God offends us in our belief system, who is in the wrong?
Not at all, Sierra – this is good conversation. I appreciate your perspective. I think Adam has been extremely helpful in articulating with more clarity much of what I was talking about.
God’s word is always challenging, and always instructive. So are God’s people – and that includes you.
Thanks – DEREK
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Derek, thanks for your thoughts regarding liberation, which is always encouraging, and proof texting, which is instructive. As a writer, I so appreciate your commitment to find and communicate meaning rather than cherry-picking to support suspect theology. And as a human being, I appreciate your encouragement to all people to be who they are made to be.
Adam, you are one of my favorite “thinking out loud” Christians. Plus you bring some much needed factual background to any conversation. I like the way you clarify, nudge, and help me come to my own conclusions without being pushy.
Thanks for your faithfulness and your good mind.
– DEREK
Great topic and discussion. I have always been puzzled by the exclusion of 50 % of humanity in any realm. I just simply do not see exclusion of women as part of God’s plan. It makes no sense to me. What I do see is a text that has been subject to interpretation and translation by men protecting their authority in society. Historically, the notion of women as equals is less than 200 years old. What a shame that some institutions continue this outdated concept and women accept it. Did God really expect His creation to stop progressing 2,000 years ago when the world was flat?
Gary- I had to look up the word cogent 🙂 Thank you, I appreciate it. I will beat my drum all day about the power of the Word of God because it has transformed my life.
Thanks for my blog. I know it was for me. 🙂 it was like a valentine from my father in love.
Sent from my iPhone
>
My pleasure. It’s good to prompt one-another to think 🙂
Love back at you
Pastor Derek, I so love most of what you have to say. As a woman who feels called to teach the Word (and was at one point kicked out of a bible-study and group of friends for my passionate belief that woman can and SHOULD teach and lead)… but you said ‘The Bible isn’t God’. I disagree. The gospel of John opens with a sweeping statement about Jesus- “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Jesus was the ‘Word made flesh’. So the scripture itself holds the essence of who God is. We can’t discount any of it. We have to take in the whole counsel of it. That’s how I came to the conclusion that women should preach if they are anointed to do so. Our calling and identity in Christ supercedes gender roles. (Gal. 3:28) Also, maybe Paul simply meant women should be quiet and respectful while someone is preaching. I’ve been in services were they weren’t. Not cool. Women do have more of a tendency to do that. But God obviously uses women- Like Deborah or Joyce Meyer. I personally believe men should be leaders and head pastors and such but God can certainly raise up a woman to lead. Also, women were made subject to men through the curse and fall. Jesus came to redeem us from the curse. Men and women are therefore on level ground at the foot of the cross.
Quick – important – correction. I am NOT a pastor!! Thanks for your comment. Jesus most certainly is The Word made flesh. But I don’t believe we’re called to worship the words – just The Word. Regardless, I appreciate your enthusiastic and positive witness. Grace and peace – DEREK
The first chapter of John is not referencing what we now call the Bible. That’s a false equivalency. The “logos” referenced in Greek could be understood as “word” or “will.” In Hebrew, the concept is more of an allusion to the personification of God’s will…or a relational bridge to the unfathomable God. The writer of John is offering us his lede, stating that Jesus is God’s word and will. This has nothing to do with the 66 books. In fact, it might be an effort to turn people’s focus away from scriptural squabbles and back on Jesus.
Not buying it. You are over-complicating something relatively simple. Jesus is the Word of God personified. Hebrews calls it ‘alive and active’. Not just 66 books loped together but one long divinely inspired text, all of it “God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.” 2 Tim. 3:16 True, aspects of His character are unfathomable but he makes much clear to us in His Word- “I publicly proclaim bold promises. I do not whisper obscurities in some dark corner.” Isaiah 45:19 The Bible HAS to be the plumb-line of truth or our deceitful hearts will lead us astray and into false doctrine. If you reject the Word as the authoritative word of God then I submit that you are not a true believer.
Helpf comment, Adam
Adam, I like what you had to say about the Word or Will of Go being made manifest in flesh rather than the written word. At first, I reacted like this: Wrong! The Word is the Bible. Then I let it sit with my spirit for a while and I understand what you are saying. I just left a church where there were many doctrinal errors. Most of them were based on Scripture that had been misapplied. If we are not careful, we can begin to doubt the written word, then start to think Jesus wasn’t REALLY God, it’s just the Bible saying so. I have also heard a person who believes we come from an alien race (The source of God.), and that when Genesis says “Let US create man in OUR image” it is referring to the aliens working together in the creation. We indeed have to be very careful who we listen to and what we say the Bible is saying. Good thought Adam. Thanks for sharing it.
Sierra, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’ll try to do a better job explaining, using only established fact without extrapolation.
In John the word used for “word” is “logos.” Now, what does this word mean? In interpreting any text, particularly one that was written in another language to people who spoke yet another language, you must begin and end with the word’s meaning without adding anything to it.
“Logos” means “the expression of a thought” or “reasoning expressed by words.” In popular understanding, it was also used to mean “expressed will.”
The Jews reading this would have understood that John was using “logos” to define Jesus as a way to understand God’s will, a personification of God’s essence and meaning. The Greeks reading this word would have understood that John’s account would be a story about the embodied will of God and the expression of God’s will.
Let me be absolutely clear. These facts do not negate scripture. The writer of John is establishing Jesus as the Son of God. This is the message of the entire book.
I never said the Bible was “lumped together” it does consist of 66 books and excludes many others that, though commonly used, were rejected by the committee that established the final collection. Further, and this is important, the writer of 2 Timothy was talking specifically about the Old Testament. At least 7 NT books had not even been written yet. Further, the writer specifically reminds Timothy that he has been “taught the scriptures from his childhood,” which would have been before any NT books had been written.
Again, this is not a “rejection” of scripture. Nor is it meant to cause doubt. It is a series of facts.
Interesting, Adam. Thanks for clarifying. I see a shift in the church culture towards pandering to the notions of political correctness and not standing by the truth. I personally have no doubt that God guided the formation of what we know as the ‘Bible’ from start to finish. I’ve read some of those other writings and they honestly don’t have the same level of anointing.
Very well said…. Derek.
Thanks you, Scott!
I can humbly say that God has equipped and gifted me with the gift of teaching and I feel compelled by the Spirit to do it. God loves me and uses me as much as He uses my husband in His service. Thanks for that write up. It has indeed boosted me despite all the opposition that I receive here by many …:) God bless
This is great! This is wonderful! You are totally NOT over-complicating anything! I, along with tons of others, appreciate and respect the perspective you offer in your every day blog- the Internet is a happier place because of you! thank you for sharing the TRUTH. 🙂
She was referencing Adam’s comment! But thanks.
Good conversation here 🙂
Hi Derek, great blog. Very thought provoking. I agree with the statement that the Bible is not God, but it is God’s word. Narrative doesn’t seem strong enough. I also love Rebekah’s challenge of “what else does the Bible say?” I think the key to not misusing the Bible is in this statement. We really need to study the Word diligently and ask the Holy Spirit to help us understand it and how it applies to our personal walk right where we are. We need to read it in context of the whole text, each author and the specific time and purpose. This is how we can read the same text and get different messages from others and even from our own selves at different times. Thanks be to God for his Word that nourishes us, refreshes our soul and enlightens our paths!
I don’t want to come off as a jerk. I enjoy Derek ‘ s blog as well. My rant was a warning for all of us. Are we judging God’s word against what we have been cultured to believe? Shouldn’t we filter culture through a biblical lense? Shouldn’t scripture be the highest authority? If the Word of God offends us in our belief system, who is in the wrong?
Not at all, Sierra – this is good conversation. I appreciate your perspective. I think Adam has been extremely helpful in articulating with more clarity much of what I was talking about.
God’s word is always challenging, and always instructive. So are God’s people – and that includes you.
Thanks – DEREK
Derek, thanks for your thoughts regarding liberation, which is always encouraging, and proof texting, which is instructive. As a writer, I so appreciate your commitment to find and communicate meaning rather than cherry-picking to support suspect theology. And as a human being, I appreciate your encouragement to all people to be who they are made to be.
Adam, you are one of my favorite “thinking out loud” Christians. Plus you bring some much needed factual background to any conversation. I like the way you clarify, nudge, and help me come to my own conclusions without being pushy.
Thanks for your faithfulness and your good mind.
– DEREK
Great topic and discussion. I have always been puzzled by the exclusion of 50 % of humanity in any realm. I just simply do not see exclusion of women as part of God’s plan. It makes no sense to me. What I do see is a text that has been subject to interpretation and translation by men protecting their authority in society. Historically, the notion of women as equals is less than 200 years old. What a shame that some institutions continue this outdated concept and women accept it. Did God really expect His creation to stop progressing 2,000 years ago when the world was flat?
nicely put, Jerome. Especially the observation that many men “use” religion to try to protect their “authority.”
– DEREK
Thank you Sierra. I’ve been reading Derek’s “Gospel of Love” blog for a long time, and I think you were very cogent. Gary
Gary- I had to look up the word cogent 🙂 Thank you, I appreciate it. I will beat my drum all day about the power of the Word of God because it has transformed my life.
Many “amens” to that, Sierra…